RealTalk #6 Payout Ratios?

[Theo McNair]

I have heard differing opinions on payouts and payout ratio. So I am putting this out there for the RealBowlers. Is a 1:3 (PBA) or a 1:4 (RBT) payout ratio watering the money down to much to where the top winners are not making the kind of money they should? If so what do you feel is the best payout ratio and why?

For those that may not know the more people you pay the less money you can pay up top. The less money up top, the more people say that "something" is not worth them bowling or traveling to bowl.

I also have seen the scenario where people travel for a $3000 1st place tournament and dont cash because they came in 8th place vs coming to a $1500 1st place and had they come in the same spot they would have almost doubled their money.

This is for singles events of course.

I personally feel that 1:7 and 1:8 and higher ratios are good for those few up top but not really beneficial when you are trying to pay more of the bowlers.

What do you think?

[Theo McNair]

Also, you have to look at the economy and the times we are living in. Everything is watered down because people dont have the same money that may have had in years past. We had to make adjustments with our tour to accomodate for the changes in our economy. My wife is a realtor, she would love for things to be the way they were 5-10 years ago but the fact of the matter is they are not. She has to adjust to the market and keep on moving, quitting is not an option. :)

Isom said:

Lets face it Akil, bowling is a gamble. We know that going in. Lower ratios make it less of a gamble, and higher ratios make it more of a gamble. I think part of what is ruining bowling is that everyone wants to play but no one wants to lose. But it just cant be that way. Somebody has to lose for others to win. Bowling gets watered down too much when you lower the ratios and try to spread the money so thin that no one really makes any money. When it gets to that point, whats the point of bowling?

[Isom]

Theo, I honestly dont think there really is a solution. Bowling is down everywhere in the country, but I think its worse in the south than anywhere (or thats what I hear). I think it may continue to decline until there isnt much left of it but memories.

[Nick Smith]

I cant speak for the Atl area but here in Greenville the mindset of almost the entire bowling association is its better to pay more bowlers than to reward the winner(s). Look at the league bowling in your area. Other than the advertised RealBowlers League, how many other leagues have a big payout to the winners? That is the same situation here in Greenville. We have several leagues where the winners barely get there money back. It is this mindset that is starting to make its way to tournaments. I see no problem in a 1:5, 1:6 pay ratio, or even only paying those that bowl well enough to make the 8 or so. Like in the RBT's I really dont see a problem with only paying the guys that make matchplay. Tournament prize funds were set up to reward the ones who bowled well, good, and great, not the guys that bowled ok or average.

Isom I think the reason that the amount being payed to 1st place is on such a decrease is due to several things, lower bowler participation, lower sponsor participation, and just lower interest in the sport of bowling in general. No one really wants to pay alot to bowl but at the sametime they want to be able to win a large amount.

[Annette Lyons-Oatman]

I have given several tournaments over the past 10 years. I have paid out more than $100,000.00. My ratio is always 1 out of 10. The reason is because all my tournaments have a GUARANTEED prize fund. My last tounamant paid out $10,000 guaranteed first Place doubles tournament. Most of my tournaments run for one month and I pay $3,000 1st Place Guaranteed. I also Payout CASH the day after the tournament.

I have no complaints.......I also add money to the jackpots.....Guarantee the money and they will come....

[Theo McNair]

Annette,
With Doubles Tournament you almost have to pay a 1:10 for it to be decent, but what do you feel about Singles Tournaments?

Annette Lyons-Oatman said:

I have given several tournaments over the past 10 years. I have paid out more than $100,000.00. My ratio is always 1 out of 10. The reason is because all my tournaments have a GUARANTEED prize fund. My last tounamant paid out $10,000 guaranteed first Place doubles tournament. Most of my tournaments run for one month and I pay $3,000 1st Place Guaranteed. I also Payout CASH the day after the tournament.

I have no complaints.......I also add money to the jackpots.....Guarantee the money and they will come....

[Chase]

well... I personally have only done 1 tournament...and it was a success. I really thank Atlanta for it's support with over 400 entries, and I tried my best to make everyone happy with the payouts...and also the experience of participating (prizes, free stuff, etc).

Now - this of course was a handicap doubles thing, and it was a way to actually make money ...as long as I guaranteed the pay...and made sure people felt like the tournament was fair. I also spent a LOT of money and time promoting and marketing the tournament...so thank God it worked.

BUT, as Theo has made clear... to do a tournament for Scratch Bowling (Singles) with a BIG guaranteed payout, along with a decent pay ratio...well, for me…I honestly am pulling my hair out trying to figure out “a way to do it” …where it actually makes $ense for everyone.

When I did the Bowling200.com | iBowlstrikes Handicap thing, I already had over $7,000 put aside as a budget...to make sure I could pay out…and everyone be happy. I was willing to gamble that people would come...based on me guarenteeing the cash. But for a Scratch Singles thing???? .... I have personally seen the scratch bowlers not support or can't afford to support the local scratch tournament…and bowlers not show when the bell rings.

I say all of this because… I’d love to do a big scratch tournament, but ....without a big sponsor to guarantee the money?? I don’t see how it can be done…especially if the tournament is to payout more than 8 people.

Honestly, Theo & Tim, you guys do an incredible job with the Realbowlers tournaments..."as is" right now...and if it grows...cool. But, it's very well run and fair right now.

[Annette Lyons-Oatman]

McNair,
The only singles tournaments that I do are 9 No Tap tournaments. There I guarantee 1st through 5th Place. I also have a 300 pot, it cost $10.00 if you bowl a 9 No Tap 300 you instantly win $60.00. As I stated, Guarantee the Money and they will come....

Theo McNair said:

Annette,
With Doubles Tournament you almost have to pay a 1:10 for it to be decent, but what do you feel about Singles Tournaments?

Annette Lyons-Oatman said:

I have given several tournaments over the past 10 years. I have paid out more than $100,000.00. My ratio is always 1 out of 10. The reason is because all my tournaments have a GUARANTEED prize fund. My last tounamant paid out $10,000 guaranteed first Place doubles tournament. Most of my tournaments run for one month and I pay $3,000 1st Place Guaranteed. I also Payout CASH the day after the tournament.

I have no complaints.......I also add money to the jackpots.....Guarantee the money and they will come....

[Alan Chetister]

Wow, There is way to much to read but I will put what I think about pay out in regards to the RBT since that is the question.

I think 1:3 ratio is to much with Gar. $1500 to $2000 on top. I think 1:4 would allow you to pay more for 2-8 spots. I have made all but one cut of the RBT since I have been here with a 3rd finish with not much to show for it. Most of the money I have made in the RBT is off of brackets. Yes, I bowl every tournament to win but I am doing this for a living now. I have to go to the place that I have the best chance of making money for the weekend not the one that pays the highest. It is so hard to win tournaments with the formats now, elimination and brackets finals are tough. The best bowler that day usually doesnt win, the person with the best luck one game does.

That is my littler ole opinion.....

[Alan Chetister]

I think it is stupid to make a cut and not get paid, just cut to the cashier. You will save of lineage which should be given back to the bowlers.

[Theo McNair]

Not sure if I understand your point Alan. RBT does not pay 1:3 we pay 1:4. Are you saying a 1:4 payout is good or bad? What do you think the best payout ratio is? Thats the question.

Alan Chetister said:

Wow, There is way to much to read but I will put what I think about pay out in regards to the RBT since that is the question.

I think 1:3 ratio is to much with Gar. $1500 to $2000 on top. I think 1:4 would allow you to pay more for 2-8 spots. I have made all but one cut of the RBT since I have been here with a 3rd finish with not much to show for it. Most of the money I have made in the RBT is off of brackets. Yes, I bowl every tournament to win but I am doing this for a living now. I have to go to the place that I have the best chance of making money for the weekend not the one that pays the highest. It is so hard to win tournaments with the formats now, elimination and brackets finals are tough. The best bowler that day usually doesnt win, the person with the best luck one game does.

That is my littler ole opinion.....

[Alan Chetister]

My bad, I wasnt sure what it was. If has been 1:4 then for sure 1:5 and hell no to 1:3. If it was 1:3 you would be paying 1500 for first and 500 for second.

also, cut to the the cashier. You could probably save $200 to $300 on lineage.

[Theo McNair]

The bowlers are the ones bowling the games. Linage doesnt go in our pocket. We believe in giving bowlers more games. The reason we cut after 5 games is just that, to not waste linage money for those additional 3 gms, with half of the field. So, look at it like this, you bowl 8 games and then we cut to the cashers. If you pay $100 to bowl you should at least get some games out of it. Our formats taylor to more than just one style of bowler

We have done over 40 scratch singles tournaments and based on our experience and the feedback we have received from bowlers this is the best product and format for now. So, we didnt just come up with this overnight.

If there are too few games bowlers cry, if there are too many they cry as well. If there is to many bowlers in match play they cry if there are not enough... This format and ratio has worked for us this past season. Not sure why there is such a major complaint about it.



Alan Chetister said:

I think it is stupid to make a cut and not get paid, just cut to the cashier. You will save of lineage which should be given back to the bowlers.