Okay, now with the dust still in the air.

[Theo McNair]

Okay, I know a lot of bowlers from the Real Money mixed league come on here to look at the standings. I want to hear from you and find out which teams do you feel everyone need to look out for in this league. I feel this will be one of the most competitive leagues in the city (Correct me if I am wrong). Tell me who do you think will end up on top or have a chance to end up on top in this league? Don't be scared to speak up for your own team.

[F.O.X]

The better bowlers/teams will remain at the top. The average bowlers/teams will not make it to the top due to the fact that the season is split into two separate halfs. Wherever your team ends up the first half, is more than likely close to the position you'll end up the second half due to the fact that you'll be bowling the same teams again the second half.

Had the league been a straight 36 weeks, the average teams would have had a chance to move up higher due to the fact now, they are bowling all the teams in the league instead of a select few due to the shortness of the 18 week halves. With position round every three weeks, your team can't afford to go into a downward slide because it could turn out to be very costly. With a straight 36 weeks, if you lose some ground, you can make it up. In a nut shell, you have to bring it every night you bowl in order to have a chance.

The better bowlers/teams will remain at the top due to the shortness of the "season" since it has been split in two. When the second half starts, you're bowling these same guys you may not get past again. So, how far can you go? Had you had a 36 week season, you could have taken some points from the others teams to gain ground to make up to the top.

This is how it looks to me, time will tell. As I always believe, anything is possible if you want it bad enough............

[Theo McNair]

Fox,
I don't agree that better bowlers and better teams are the same. I feel that because a person is a better bowler does not mean they have the better team. Especially in a league like this one built with a cap.
Also, the split season to me gives you two chances at winning not just one. I personally feel that if the mentality of teams is they can't beat the better bowlers then they won't. But if you look at it as, "my team needs to beat their team this one night" then it takes more of the advantage away from the "better bowlers".
Since I am responding I will go on record and say "my team" is going to be at the top when the dust settles. We don't have a bunch of "better bowlers" but we will have one of the "better teams". :)

[F.O.X]

I agree that just because you may be a better bowler, that doesn't automatically mean you have the better team. Yet, with the cap in place, most teams may have anywhere from 2-3 above average bowlers and 1-2 average bowlers. It just depends on how they wish to "manipulate" their handicap points. Having some handicap can be a good thing, as long as when the pressure is on you can deliver.

In the long haul, the people who put in more time into their game and perform together well as a team should prevail.

Theo McNair said:

Fox,
I don't agree that better bowlers and better teams are the same. I feel that because a person is a better bowler does not mean they have the better team. Especially in a league like this one built with a cap.
Also, the split season to me gives you two chances at winning not just one. I personally feel that if the mentality of teams is they can't beat the better bowlers then they won't. But if you look at it as, "my team needs to beat their team this one night" then it takes more of the advantage away from the "better bowlers".
Since I am responding I will go on record and say "my team" is going to be at the top when the dust settles. We don't have a bunch of "better bowlers" but we will have one of the "better teams". :)

[Jack Taylor]

Well all i know is i got a bet with greg black jr that our team will finish better thans theres at the end of the season. I think we have a very strong team.

[Kenny Taylor]

I disagree with Theo. The cap is useless because the handicap system is archaic and ludicris. It gives pins to the high average bowler instead of the low average bowler.
If you look at the RB league standing sheet carefully you will see most teams have a team average and handicap total around 829. The top teams are 853 and up including 894 (835 + 59) for team #25. My team #23 is 853 (821 + 32). So in actuality we will be giving a team averaging 14 pins higher than us 27 pins handicap, which to me is a farce.
This is a result of cutting off the individual handicaps at 210. Although I am currently averaging 220 how many pins do I get from the leadoff man on team #25 and his 256 average? Hint - You Gets Nothing. If you don't raise the individual handicap base to include all bowlers, the high average bowlers and their teams will have an unbeatable advantage throughout the season.
The solution is, and I know it won't happen would be to raise the handicap base to the next highest 10 pin increment over the highest entering average (240), or since the handicap base is 90% of 210 a 220 average would get a handicap of (-10) pins or finally figure handicaps on a team basis (example a team averaging 900 would give a team averaging 800 a handicap of 90 pins). The second solution is the best because no rule change would be involved handicap would remain 90% of 210. There is nothing in the rules stating averages over 210 will bowl scratch.
FOX is correct when he says better bowlers have the better teams but it isn't due to their bowling. There are 6 teams that have a chance of winning the league #25 Greg and Isom, #8 Curtis Wilson and James Menefee, #18 Ron Evans and Jack Jackson, #27Charles Jordan, my team #23 with Lockett and Allison, and team #19 as long as KJ can average 245.
I've been there, done that, and been doing it for a long time. Take my word.

[Theo McNair]

So Ken,
Take your word on what exactly? How many leagues are you bowling in or have bowled in the past few years here in Atlanta where there were 6 teams out of 29 that YOU felt had a strong chance at winning? Meaning there is no one team that has a clear advantage. To me that is what the cap helps make happen. "The cap is useless"??? Greg to his credit is bowling unbelieveable right now. If you or anyone else in the league was averaging 760 your team at the time would have an advantage as well.
By the way make sure you join the Real Money Mixed Group where we will post the standings, rules, prize fund, etc.

[F.O.X]

It seems the "handicap" issue has shown it's ugly head again. Some vaild points are being spoken hear, bit I feel the solution won't be an easy one.

First, "scratch" is an avgerage of 200 or better. So, anything over 200 is considered scratch. Now, the "real" problem is, how many bowlers do we have in a particular league that are over 200?

In my opinion, THAT list should be compiled FIRST. After that list is compiled, then you take the number of bowlers that average over 200, add them all together and divided by the number of bowlers that averaged over 200. Whatever number you came up with, then you can base it off of whatever you wish.

90%, 80%, whatever figure you feel that the league will remain competitive. The key thing here that this is a handicap league. So, all those who "feel" they are 200 bowlers, can't "feel" they are if they weren't counted in with the ones that actually are.

I also feel that this would possibly eliminate some "sandbagging" beacuse if a particular bowler knows he's getting into a league were the "handicap" is going to very large, why carry the big average in the start of the season. I can just bowl to "get buy" and rack up a few pins and unload when ready. This would affect everything across the board, including the brackets.

At times, I know I'm not the only one that feels that on any given night, if I'm carrying the higher average, that I can get out bowled by someone with a lower average and get beat by "handicap". Yet, in actuality how often can/should this happen?

In reality, the scratch bowler "should" prevail over the long haul. The handicap is just a tool to "even out" the playing field against the lower average bowlers. In the same breath though, you can't have a ridicoulos number for handicap and lane conditions that favor "handicap" bowlers also.

Some way or another there must be a "balance", which is missing at times. That's a tale for another discussion........

F.O.X

Theo McNair said:

So Ken,
Take your word on what exactly? How many leagues are you bowling in or have bowled in the past few years here in Atlanta where there were 6 teams out of 29 that YOU felt had a strong chance at winning? Meaning there is no one team that has a clear advantage. To me that is what the cap helps make happen. "The cap is useless"??? Greg to his credit is bowling unbelieveable right now. If you or anyone else in the league was averaging 760 your team at the time would have an advantage as well.
By the way make sure you join the Real Money Mixed Group where we will post the standings, rules, prize fund, etc.

[Kenny Taylor]

Theo,
In response to your last reply: Say you had a cap of 840.(these are fictional entering averages)- You have one team with 4-210 average bowlers getting zero pins handicap. Another team has 2 men averaging 250 and 2-170 bowlers adding up to the same 840 and getting 72 pins handicap. Why?
The only way a low average team could win would be to establish very low averages the first 9 games, and then bowl just well enough to win. I've seen this done also.
I've bowled handicap leagues and tournaments with 230 and 240 bowlers before and they got minus 100% handicap. I find this a little too much minus 80% or 90% depending on the league or tournament would be fairer.
I myself have bowled leagues with minus handicaps, I bowled Kegler tournaments with minus 30 pins handicap (-10 per game) and bowled the Lilac tournament with minus 7 per game.
In New York, New Jersey and Long Island a 250 average bowler in a handicap league would give up 32-36 more pins handicap than a 210 average bowler. Look at my USBC record in 2003, I was subbing and averaging over 260, I had to quit before my handicap was adjusted.
Anyway you'll see who wins the Thursday Real Money League, the same people who win all the leagues in the ATL. I don't fear anyone or any team but I don't think it's fair that my team has to give higher average teams pins.

[Jack Taylor]

Here is the deal ken, ive seen you bowl ill just leave it at that, and just wonder why if you didnt like the cap or the handicap why the hell did you join the league in the first place. I bowl with theo and to be honest with you the team who WINS AS TEAM AND LOSES AS A TEAM WILL WIN THE LEAGUE but the stuff bout greg black avg 250 be happy for him he is a good bowler and a great guy and a hell of a bowler. I think all the teams are very competive and we will see in the end what team comes out on top. Just as long as you have fun that is all that matters
Kenny Taylor said:

Theo,
In response to your last reply: Say you had a cap of 840.(these are fictional entering averages)- You have one team with 4-210 average bowlers getting zero pins handicap. Another team has 2 men averaging 250 and 2-170 bowlers adding up to the same 840 and getting 72 pins handicap. Why?
The only way a low average team could win would be to establish very low averages the first 9 games, and then bowl just well enough to win. I've seen this done also.
I've bowled handicap leagues and tournaments with 230 and 240 bowlers before and they got minus 100% handicap. I find this a little too much minus 80% or 90% depending on the league or tournament would be fairer.
I myself have bowled leagues with minus handicaps, I bowled Kegler tournaments with minus 30 pins handicap (-10 per game) and bowled the Lilac tournament with minus 7 per game.
In New York, New Jersey and Long Island a 250 average bowler in a handicap league would give up 32-36 more pins handicap than a 210 average bowler. Look at my USBC record in 2003, I was subbing and averaging over 260, I had to quit before my handicap was adjusted.
Anyway you'll see who wins the Thursday Real Money League, the same people who win all the leagues in the ATL. I don't fear anyone or any team but I don't think it's fair that my team has to give higher average teams pins.

[Kenny Taylor]

JACK,
YOU WANT TO KNOW WHY I JOINED THE LEAGUE IF I DON'T LIKE THE CAP OR THE HANDICAP SYSTEM OR THE CAP IT IS BECAUSE THERE ARE NO SCRATCH LEAGUES IN ATLANTA IN CASE YOU DIDN'T NOTICE. AND AS LONG AS YOU GIVE THE ADVANTAGE TO THE HIGH AVERAGE BOWLERS THERE WON'T BE ANY SCRATCH LEAGUES AND I CAN'T BLAME THEM.
ALSO I HAVE ALL THE RESPECT IN THE WORLD FOR GREG BLACK AND ISOM HAWES. THEY ARE BOTH GREAT YOUNG BOWLERS WITH EXCEPTIONAL TALENT AND SKILLS. BUT IN MY 45 YEARS OF BOWLING I'VE SEEN A LOT OF GREAT BOWLERS. I JUST HAVE NEVER SEEN SUCH INADEQUESIES IN THE HANDICAP SYSTEM. I'M NOT TRYING TO PUT ANYBODY DOWN I JUST WANTED TO BRING THE PROBLEM TO EVERYBODIES ATTENTION.
AS FAR AS MY BOWLING IS CONCERNED, I'M A LITTLE UNCOMFORTABLE NOW BUT THE CREAM SHALL RISE TO THE TOP.

[TIM MCNAIR]

Guys, ultimately the most important thing in bowling and any other sport or activity is that you enjoy yourself and compete with the utmost in sportsmanship. I know there are other factors that drive us such as winning, money, etc. but at the end of the day the enjoyment of it all is what keeps us competing in this sport. In my opinion there is no perfect handicap system, because if it was we would be doing it......shoot everyone would be doing it and my guess is you would still have some people that are not happy with it. What matters to me is what i do on any given nite against who ever my team is bowling. Everybody can be beat any given nite no matter who they are or what there average is. In the world we live in if you are talented and have worked hard at what you do, you should be the best and you shouldnt be penalized for being good. The thing that i love about team bowling is the team aspect, no one individual has to win by himself its a collective effort. Like Jack said, you win and lose as a team. Have fun bowling........thats what its for.

[JEFF SHAW]

HOW ABOUT THESE BOWLERS WITH LOWER AVERAGES - TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THEIR AVERAGE AND "PRACTICE, LEARN TO BOWL AND ADJUST TO LANE CONDITIONS." BOWL AS A TEAM. YOU SHOULD HAVE TO WORK FOR IT. HOW DO YOU THINK BETTER/HIGHER AVERAGE BOWLERS GOT THAT WAY ???!!! MOST SPEND TIME IN THE BOWLING CENTERS AND "PRACTICE" - MAYBE TAKE A LESSON. YOU CAN'T BOWL THREE GAMES A WEEK AND EXPECT TO COMPETE - EVEN WITH TODAYS - LANE CONDITIONS & BOWLING BALL HAND GRENADES. COME ON BOWLERS - GET REAL !!!