What do you think we need to change or do, so that we can get more participation in the tournaments in Atlanta?

[Greg Black Jr]

I think its very simple. STOP PUTTING  A CAP ON EVERY THING WE BOWL IN. I am not just saying that because I average 240+, but if you were to take the cap off, then  maybe bowlers from out of town would come support and take a chance to win them some money.

Example: If I had 8 bowlers, but 6 of them averaged 215 to 230 and the stayed in Alabama and it was a tournament in Atlanta with a cap of 430 or 435. We would have to find some lower average bowlers who would be willing to drive all the way to altanta because we wouldn't know who or how many people will be at your tournament with low enough averages and without a partner, that will take a chance to bowl with someone they dont know.......

But if you take the cap off, then it would not matter because we can bowl with each other as well as handicap bowlers which will increase entry's, alibi's, and people from other areas like North Carolina,South Carolina,Chattanooga,Alabama and other parts of Georgia would seriously think about coming to bowl.

Everytime I go out of town people ask about tournaments in Atlanta and tell me they want to come bowl in something here,but when I show them the flyers,first thing they say is NEVERMIND BECAUSE THEY ARE LIMITING ME TO ONLY BOWL WITH PEOPLE I DONT KNOW, and these are only 200 to 225 bowlers.

To make a long stoy short,make it worth it for people from other areas to come bowl. IM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE PRIZE FUND, BECAUSE YALL PAY GOOD. IM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE SHOT, BECAUSE THE SHOT IS NEVER EASY WHICH MAKES IT EVEN FOR BOTH HANDICAP AND SCRATCH BOWLERS.................JUST TAKE THE CAP OFF AND LET PEOPLE BOWL......

 

                                      THAT IS ALL

[Chase]

If you could play down the 8 board and win 85-90% of the time... would you change the way you play just to please some that say, "he can only play down 8"  (I'm saying it's kinda hard to change something that is working pretty well for the B200 tournaments)

 

I am not disagreeing with Greg or you Akil, I believe there shouldn't be a cap.  I also don’t think I should limit Handicap to only 45 pins either.  If you read my earlier posts, this all just comes down to taking the risk of change to see if it works.  Hey, The CT Tournament is this weekend... there will be no cap.   Will the center be packed?  I don’t know.  I believe it has more than just "caps' and re-rates as far as bowler participation.  There are many, many different things that need to "line up" to have a successful tournament.  I’m cool for trying the no cap thing...we'll see.  

Akil, to answer your “scratch”question; there have been 700's shot on the pattern.  I believe Isom has shot 3 or 4, Greg... I have no idea how many... Horace has shot multiple 700s, and a few guys from Metro like Mike H, and Jack too..   Jeff Shaw has shot over 750 or 760.  And there have been many high 600s scratch.  I'm sure you will not believe it, but I have also shot 750+ (scratch) on the exact same shot with James Blackstone.  But Akil, like I said, I agree with you guys… “Why have a cap?”  the shot is already hard.

 

To Theo - "Thanksgiving tournament in November?"  Uh oh :(. , 

...We have a 3 weekend tournament in November too.

[Akil Razzak]

To Chase. I said in the last 2 yrs. That pattern when Jeff shot 760 was alot more scorable.

[Craig Cihlar]

Here’s an idea, hold a tournament or tournaments, lower the entry fee a little, no cap, and you pull bowlers from a hat or some fair random process that are categorized by average say 215/220 and above “your elite bowlers” then they are matched by your to 214 to 190/180 bowlers but I wouldn’t go below 180 to enter, you must have some skill after all this is an “RBT Tournament”. Feature your elite bowlers and give them some credit where credit is due. Invite your elite bowlers to participate almost like a Pro-Am tournament. The bowlers 180 to 214 are highly teachable and I believe they will learn a lot from the Elite Bowler that is paired with that individual. Those 180 to 214 bowlers are only a spare or a strike or two away from being a 200/215 plus bowler. All bowlers want to be a 215 plus bowler but are intimidated to a certain degree in tournaments with such elite bowlers especially when it comes to competing against a 230 plus bowler and on a good solid oil pattern. Information and knowledge along with some skill comes experience from the older brother concept. This will encourage others to want to join, compete and gain valuable experience. Let the leaders be leaders and encourage them lead. Knowledge is a very powerful tool.

[Chase]

Well, to be honest we request the exact same pattern every tournament and put a lot of energy into making sure its the same.  Also, you ask about how many scratch 700s have been scored, but you could ask how many handicap 700s have been scored.. not as many as you probably think.  Actually the ratio of  handicap-participation-to-700s is very very low...and not as big of a ratio difference as you think.  Our last tournament 715 w/ handicap won the handicap singles.

 

Anyway, I think the participation could always be better, but if the tournament is planned out well, advertised well, with guaranteed money... people will usually come out....simple as that   You can take the caps away,  but in my opinion.... people will chase guaranteed money more than anything, and it has to be enough to be worth the travel, and also "make it worth while"  Remember, this is Atlanta... so tournaments are competing against a LOT of other activities to do.  Its not like we are in remote area of the carolinas or south where there isnt much else to do. 

Akil Razzak said:

To Chase. I said in the last 2 yrs. That pattern when Jeff shot 760 was alot more scorable.

[Daphne Smith]

Speaking for myself, (an out of towner), I don't bowl the doubles tourneys because of the cap. Being that I don't bowl in the Atlanta area, I don't know the local bowlers. I only know the scratch bowlers from the tourneys I have bowled. And I can't bowl with any of the scratch bowlers because of the cap. Alibis are another deterrent for me, as I don't have the advantage of knowing the locals. I know that is how a lot of the money is made, but it doesn't benefit me. There are several bowlers in my area that have shown interest but as soon as they see the cap it is a big NO!!!

As far as the RBT's...I don't like having to place in the top 5 to make it worth the money to drive to Atlanta. Being a female that is quite difficult to do. The RBT's are wonderful tournaments and I always enjoy the ones I do bowl. Tim and Theo run a great tournament. I just wish the payout ratio wasn't so top heavy.

[Randy Russell]

There are a couple of different things working against tournament directors now...I think it all comes down in the end to the lack of bowlers to pull from.  If you run a tournament like an RBT with a higher entry fee (which for the record are the best run tournaments in the Southeast for scratch bowlers), you lose some entries because a lot of bowlers don't want to put up the larger entry fee for $1500 or so for first...and then as Daphne said only have the top 4 or so really making any money.  I don't mean this as there is anything wrong with the Theo and Tim run tournaments, but tough to make large payouts when the participation seems to be slowly declining.  I know me personally I don't really get to bowl that much anymore because of family, school, and the shop, so I'm less likely to put up a larger entry fee when I know my game just isn't where it needs to be.  I love tournament bowling and will shoe up in a second when I can afford it....and have time....which just isn't very often.

As far as the cap....I totally agree with Greg on this one.  I took almost a full year off of bowling and when I came back was bowling HORRIBLE.  I booked last year at 211 so I thought bowling Chase's tournament would have been great since I'm back around 235 again......the problem is that I still couldn't find anyone that I wanted to bowl with that was really under 219 and was available.  I can only imagine Greg's frustration trying to bowl with trying to find partners averaging like 170 (Greg's league average has to be like 260...lol).

It's really complicated though...and until we get more bowlers in the game altogether the participation will continue to decline.

[Chase]

I have a hdcp doubles tournament in November that will pay $4,000.00 for 1st, and $2,000 for 2nd (guaranteed)... and I am thinking of removing the cap.  Stay tuned.  I have had very good participation with the cap....so I hate to start playing with a formula that has been working.   I will need to go and seek counsel from a few of the people who have been doing tournaments for years to get some sound advice....and also see how some of the other bowlers feel too.  Our tournaments are mainly hdcp bowlers... not scratch. 

[Theo McNair]

Like I mentioned earlier, we have our annual Thanksgiving Handicap Doubles where we will try the no cap.  Chase when did you start doing November??  We were going to expand to two weekends but we do not like overlapping with other tournaments.  November is usually a quite month.

[F.O.X]

This is truly amusing to say the least.

I can understand the frustration of having a very high average and not having someone to bowl with in doubles.

I can also understand the reasoning behind the cap scenario. Yet no one talks about the variables in the equation.

Scenario #1. Let's say for arguement sake, you have MoneyMaker (Greg Black) bowl with the Iceman (Isom Hawes) in a doubles NO CAP tournamnent. Not to say that I wouldn't bowl, but let's look at the impression left here. First off, you have two top rank bowlers bowling together. They basically massacare most of the league bowlers and brackets at a conservative 90% of the time. You don't think if the masses KNOW that these two are bowling together, what are their chances of winning? Half of them are walking in the tournament thinking they can't beat them already.

Scenario #2. Let's take what is the status quo at the moment. The cap is in place. The higher average bowlers have to bowl with someone they "fit" with. This is a bit much for the higher average bowler because they now have to basically bowl with a beginner. Spares are not going to be a premium per se' with the type of average the handicap bowler is carrying to match up with the scratch bowler. This is going to make competing difficult or almost impossible. Yet, anything is doable if you work at it.

Now, the REAL problem.

IF you let the no cap rule come into effect, you let the super powers team up and the scores have the "possibility" of getting very high.

IF you leave things as they are, the higher average bowlers feel that it's unfair to them to be penalized for having a high average.

Yet , what is the determing factor in all of this? I keep saying it over and over again. The lane condition in which you are bowling on. Yet, here it's the funniest thing to see.

IF you let the super powers bowl together with no cap, I truly doubt you'll get any participation around here because of the MENTALITY of the "scorers" not "bowlers" here. To add insult to injury, If the doubles scores start to climb too high, most will feel that will be unreachable beacause of the caliber of bowlers that you now have allowed to team up, when they are "not" that same caliber bowler.

The opposite end of the spectrum, if the super powers bowl together and the scores are relatively "low" the "mentality" will be the shot is too difficult to compete. Throw this in, another variable which makes it tough to run tournaments here.

Very few people here like to compete if the scores are low. The "mentality" here is, if the scores are low it has to be too tough. If the scores are high, it's too easy and I can't keep up with the higher average bowlers. This "mentality" carries over into participation of the tournament.

Tournaments now are SO ENTRY SENSITIVE, that you can't even throw a decent one with decent participation. IF ANYONE THINKS THAT SOMEONE IS GOING TO HOST A TOURNAMENT TO GIVE AWAY THEIR MONEY ON A HOUSE SHOT, YOU'RE FOOLING YOURSELF. Yet, the tournaments CAN'T make the shot too difficult because here, the entries go down if word gets out that the shot is too hard. Make the shot too easy, the scores go through the roof and then the "mentality" is that number is to high to hit. YOU'RE DAMNED IF YOU DO, DAMNED IF YOU DON'T.

Here, most want to say they shot 250, 260, 270. Did they win the money though? I'd rather face the best bowlers on something tough, where I can squeak out a chance of beating them than to bowl on some cake and ice cream house shot that they've seen a MILLION times and have mastered hitting it.

Everyone starts out learning to bowl on the house shot, and open play shot. It doesn't mean to stay on it forever. When you started bowling you might have had and entry level ball. As you got better you moved up in equipment to something stronger, yet upgraded your equipment but not the level of competition or the conditions you bowl on?

Where's the challenge? Oh I forgot, you're too busy trying to shoot that next 280 to lose and go home broke again.

Tournament directors , league directors, and bowling alley owners, make the lane conditions fair. Stop knuckling under to the cry babies and making the shots "softer"/"easier". Make it fair to "every style" bowler, give EVERYONE a chance to compete. If everyone has a chance to compete, they will. If you feel you have no chance to compete, then participation will continue to go down.

Some of us will have to tighten up our games if we are going to compete/bowl. Now, if you want to "score", just leave everything the way it is.

Nuff said....

[Chase]

Well, both the May and November tournament adds were new ideas that came up right after the Feb tournament because so many people kept asking us to not make them wait another yr before we did it again.... saying we dont do enough tournaments.  And we learned the "hard way" to NOT try and do tournaments in August because I have lost  money each time.  Although, I am planning a 2 day hdcp singles in August as a "tester" to see what happens.  Theo, I honestly didnt realize the Thanksgiving Doubles thing with RBT.  ( I apologize that I didnt call you first)

Theo McNair said:

Like I mentioned earlier, we have our annual Thanksgiving Handicap Doubles where we will try the no cap.  Chase when did you start doing November??  We were going to expand to two weekends but we do not like overlapping with other tournaments.  November is usually a quite month.

[Chase]

Theo, I did go back and look and can see that you have been doing a Thanksgiving Tournament right at Thanksgiving time; Nov 24-27 in 2011... and in 2010, Nov.  26-28.   I do rememeber there is normally a tourney right around Thanksgiving... and that is really why I didnt want to be aroud that last weekend.  But I definitely (honestly) didnt rememeber that it was you and Tim (or that anything would be happening in those 1st 3 weekeneds)...except a possible tournament in Snellville.

 

Again, I apologize.  Let's talk Thursday Night.

[Bernard Smith]

220 avg is scratch. Get a lower average or hit the pro tour. Just keep it real handicapping is bowlers averaging under 190. Over 190 need a scratch bowling series tournament.